trailbum: Anything expediting the collapse of American empire and its capital worshipping culture is a benefit to life on Earth.

ryyyyaaann_: @trailbum Says the person on their smartphone, connected to the internet, posting on a social media app, all brought to you by...wait for it...capitalism!

green.holden: @ryyyyaaann_ Hey if that stuff was done under socialism it would be guaranteed and likely provided at greater quality levels. Every service you just listed is either severely price gauging you or you are the product if not both.

ryyyyaaann_: @green.holden What “stuff” under socialism would be guaranteed AND provided at greater quality levels? That can’t be a serious statement... The bureaucracy of government leads to waste and inefficiency. The only thing government does well is control people through power and wage war. Ironically, war is subsidized through innovations in the private sectors. As to your second point, it makes no sense. How can you be both price gauging and the product?

green.holden: @ryyyyaaann_ Go on Alibaba and search 'smartphone' or 'wholesale smartphone' if you want a better idea of what a smartphone costs to produce. All major American smartphone brands that I know of manufacture in China. We just don't have the infrastructure in the USA. On top charging you an arm and a leg for your smartphones, the companies are stealing your data. You don't really own your device anymore. You are renting it from them. On top of that there is good chance that the software we use has CIA backdoors in it. Not to mention the hardware itself.

green.holden: @ryyyyaaann_ Socialism is fundamentally about rule by the people rather than the few. No one is promising a panacea. Personally I believe in flat hierarchies and equality. I think that individuals are best equipped to make decisions about issues affecting them rather then some distant elite or bureaucrat.

ryyyyaaann_: @green.holden Those are separate issues. We could manufacture here in the US but the goods/services would cost more. Trade agreements have also heavily hurt the American people while favoring other nations like China. And, Alibaba is company founded on capitalistic principles. Also, China has been shifting to a more free market economy in the last several decades. Of course they’re still totalitarian in nature politically. Do you think a socialist nation would be more free and transparent? Like North Korea, China, Venezuela, or the former Soviet Union? Those nations are more intrusive. They have no checks and balances to their government power. And what is socialism but surrendering individual freedoms and choice to the hands of the government.

ryyyyaaann_: @green.holden Haha I’m sorry but that’s the antithesis of socialism! Which is “any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.” That means, the GOVERNMENT controls the means of production and decides who gets what. In socialism, their is no individual ownership or sovereignty. See Venezuela for the most recent example. They government seized ownership of all private business and capital. What you refer to is more close libertarianism. Also, what do you mean by equality? Do you mean equality of opportunity or equality of outcome? Those are very different. And, how, in your idea of socialism (which is incorrect by definition) do you prevent totalitarian rule by majority (51%)?

green.holden: @ryyyyaaann_ I don't see how my view necessarily contradicts your provided definition... The lack of ownership is somewhat of an ideal actually. It may or may not be difficult to maintain though... I believe that all humans are more or less equal. I think systems should respect that. We have an issue that America is quickly sliding into oligarchy or rule by the 1% (if we are not there already). In contrast rule by 51% sounds a lot nicer. At least then the 51% has more accountability to the 49%. Most 1%'rs either actively contempt or don't care for the people below them as long as they keep working.

ryyyyaaann_: @green.holden if you really think the lack of ownership is an ideal, I sincerely think you are misguided. You’re saying that anyone, at anytime, for any reason could come and take your personal belongings. That is majority (51%) rule. In other words, the state, or whomever governs, has control over your sovereignty. That is not virtuous. That is sadistic and seriously lacks individual responsibility. North Korea, Soviet Russia, Cuba, and the likes have taught us what that leads to. Additionally, humans are not equal. We’re unique and different in various ways. Do we all have intrinsic value? Yes. But, we’re not equal. I will agree that America is sliding into an oligarchy, ruled and controlled by the political, media, and tech elite. However, your presupposition that socialism is the answer is naive and dangerous for many reasons. In other words you’re proposing one form of control for another. Most dangerously, what you’re proposing is the elimination of individual rights, responsibility, and sovereignty... The empirical evidence that socialism is disastrous is overwhelming. Please, read your history on socialism. It’s led to 50-100 million deaths directly and indirectly. Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Kim Jong-Un, Pol Pot, etc. were all socialists and proposed what you are now. Their reasoning stemmed from Marx’s writings. Lenin promised “Peace, Land, and Bread.” And he never delivered.

green.holden: @ryyyyaaann_ People domestic and abroad are already afraid of having their stuff and livelihoods taken away by America. We have limited dry land and resources on the planet. I feel we should do our best to divide that evenly among people. No not everyone is the same, but trying to determine who is more deserving is a major rabbit hole we should try to avoid. It's apparently disputed which had killed more: socialism or capitalism. I am not at all proposing the elimination of human rights. I believe protecting and bolstering the common person is the best way to stop most forms of tyrrany.

ryyyyaaann_: @green.holden What people? That’s a false premise and an incredibly ignorant statement... America isn’t imperialistic. We don’t conquer nations and try to expand our territory. Modern day Russia has done that in the Ukraine. China is still trying to do that in the South China Sea. Also, the US still has a huge amount of immigrants trying to come here from all over the world, seeking opportunity and escaping oppressive and/or corrupt governments. And, it is not disputed which has killed more. Socialism is the clear winner. Again, your naivety, or willful ignorance is apparent. Capitalism equals freedom of choice and individual rights and sovereignty. Socialism equals states control and power to dictate “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” Again, your political views and beliefs are in contradiction.

green.holden: @ryyyyaaann_ This country was literally built on stolen land. The USA spends several times as much $$$ every year on its military compared to our closest rival: China. Do you really believe that's all for defense? No its war for profit. Hakim made a wonderful video arguing how capitalism is responsible for more death than socialism. (https://youtu.be/ClLKm8Q8Pns). There are so many examples where capitalism had deprived people of basic things and has done harm. Most recently it has come to light that basically all the major baby manufacturers who's baby food has been tested and who's test results were provided after being requested were hiding dangerously high levels of arsenic, lead, mercury, etc in their products. This apparently had been going on for years. All because it's more expensive to make safe baby food. They would rather poison babies and profit. This is not an isolated incident.

green.holden: @ryyyyaaann_ About the immigrants though: I'm all for diversity I'm the US though. Geopolitics is complicated though. Realize that the US is very influential in that space though. There is a lot that is great about this country, but also a lot that is ugly. The US is a very powerful country, but we are not the greatest or the worst. Again immigration is complex issue.

ryyyyaaann_: @green.holden News flash, every country was built on stolen land. So what’s your point? Should all people of European decent go back to Europe? Should all people of African decent go back to Africa? Should every Native American tribe that conquered another tribe give their land back? Where does it stop? Also, there are many false equivalences that compares deaths by capitalism vs socialism. It’s intellectually dishonest at best. You wasn’t government to dictate what people can and can’t do or own. I want individual freedom and limited government. Your socialism philosophy is collectivist at its core and thus the antithesis to individuality and freedom. Capitalism at its core is about the individual and private ownership by one’s own industriousness. You keep referencing socialism as though it’s not an atrocious philosophy with current and historical crimes against humanity and then contradict yourself saying you believe in the individual... And, you keep pontificating about unrelated subjects that have nothing to do with anything. I’m done with this conversation and your mental gymnastics. Maybe when you grow up, take personal responsibility for your life and stop blaming your failures (or others) on bad capitalists, create something for yourself like a business that you put your life and fortune into, and stop believing a failed theory that has yet to date been successfully implemented anywhere without serious loss of life and wealth, you’ll see the light.

green.holden: @ryyyyaaann_ Capitalism is powered by the work of the many. Isn't that collectivism? I'm simply arguing for a system that doesn't exploit. Capitalism thrives on exploitation where the many work very hard, but often never live to see to fruit of their sacrifice. Instead some capitalist gets most of it. Also maybe try growing up and not resorting to pety personal attacks. That's childish.

ryyyyaaann_: @green.holden Capitalism is a contract between two people, both agreeing to labor for pay. No one is forced to do anything. If you don’t like the job or the pay, you quit. If you don’t have enough skills to get paid more you can acquire them. Or, you can even start your own business. That’s not collectivism. In socialism the government simply owns everything, disincentivizes productivity, and then taxes as much as they’d like. That is exploitation. Your oversimplification of capitalism is ignorant. If you take that as an attack, that’s your problem. Also, why do you think 80% or more of American millionaires are first generation born? They didn’t inherit it, they earned it. Yet, your childish argument is they did it through exploitation. Try creating a small business, putting your life savings into it, working 16 hour days, only to have someone like you telling the owner of said business that you deserve more. Or, that you deserve and equal share of the profits. That’s childish and that’s a personal attack. Grow up!

ryyyyaaann_: @green.holden Lastly. I’ll say this. Give me an example of tens of millions of people fleeing and capitalist country for a socialist one? Did people flee in mass from ANY capitalist country to the Soviet Union, North Kore, China, Cuba, Venezuela, etc.? No. Why? Because in practice socialism doesn’t and has never worked. And, people still flee countries all over the world to the USA for opportunity. But go ahead, you keep believing in the corruption of capitalism and the benevolence of socialism.

green.holden: @ryyyyaaann_ OK fine. Honestly I'm just looking for solutions. I think it's silly to look at modern American society and think everything is alright. That doesn't comply with my experience or the knowledge/information I've acquired so far. I'm open to anyone who has serious ideas about how we correct the course we are on. Let's loose the labels. I don't really care who the ideas come from as long as they are valuable and aren't more corporatist bullshit. Your description of capitalism sounds nice and I agree and for some people it may be accurate. I'm not sure that it's so nice for everyone though. There is rot in our society right now and it's accelerating. There are also a lot of people hurting needlessly. I am simply not OK with that.. You mention starting a business. I'm working to draft an 'org' right now. I'm not at the point that I've filed anything yet, but initially it may operate as an LLC. I want to make things better.